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 Post subject: State of Balance of Existing Builders - Proposal
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:31 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:28 pm
Posts: 1
Hello Everyone,

I'm Shrike, professional game designer and long time You TD and TD player / mapper.
I want to propose some changes today, as Builders are not in the communitys hands directly.
As we all know are only select few builders really viable and I want to give each builder a
specific niche and occasional viability.

I will propose very simple changes to existing weak builders to make them situationally viable.
It is assumed that easy and medium difficulty builders are all desired to be occasional
options for expert players and not just obsolete when the higher ones become available.

I hope we can progress to a state where most builders are occasionally viable, which would
open a lot more ways to play and experiment with.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All my balance proposals take the current best Builders as reference, and of course keep power that results out of difficulty in mind.
(Aka easier Builders should be slightly weaker in raw power)




- Blademaster

Pretty decent, a viable choice over the Beastmaster if mana is desired, although can not
really compete with strong picks such as Sorceress.
Proposed: 8% Critchance > 10% Critchance
A very slight buff, around 2-4% in total Builder Power.



- Queen of the Seven Skies

There is currently no reason to ever use the bird, as even Storm + Air damage strats are easily outdone by classical damage builders.
As an easy builder, all it does is drive new players towards occasionally picking and likely fail with it.
Proposed A: 10% > 20% Attackspeed - All towers can now attack air targets
Proposed B: 10% > 20% Attackspeed - +50 Attack Range for All towers
While I do not like having 2 builders with range, it just makes so much sense to have it on a builder that
is supposed to attack air targets, which are hard to reach and fly fast.



- Adventurer

The adventurer is not bad, but compared to the "real" item builder, the Alchemist, he feels like he does not warrant a pick.
A very slight buff would make him more desirable
Proposed: 15% > 18% item find (equals to an around 8% buff in total power)



- Farseer

The issue with Farseer is that too much of his value budget lies into true sight, which can be outdone by a single item.
The 700 AOE truesight is valued way too high, while offering very little, so a further small buff is justified.
If the player is paying attention or has an item, the Builder currently offers 10% spelldamage and 75 range, which is in no way competitive.
Proposed A: Increase range to 100 and Spelldamage to 20%
Proposed B: Increase range to 100 and Attackspeed by 20%
While I understand the desire for a spelldamage builder in the easy bracket, I am no fan of tying the only range increase ingame to spell damage.
Increasing the range slightly makes it a valuable niche allround pick, and the attackspeed would fortify that, so I rather would go with attackspeed over spelldamage.



- Iron Maiden

Iron maiden seems to be an occasional pick in a vacuum for 2 player mazes or absolute beginners, It probably should gain a buff
so it can be rarely justified even for more advanced players or team mazes.
Proposed: Gains 0.3% bonus attackspeed for every 1% lives lost below 100% lives.
(So it ranges from +0% to +30% on 1 lives)
This adds a completely new dynamic that fortifies the existing concept of the hero, being a help for new players to not to die
but also adds a rubberbanding dynamic that helps them when they are low. Now experienced players can stretch this to lose lives
and gain the bonus, as the risk of losing, or just go with the lives and have the bonus as a fall back for later waves on a else very weak builder.
Even with this change, she will remain a small niche compared to the go-to builders, but now she can be justified with a special tactic in mind.



- Elementalist

The issue with him is that damage versus orcs and undead is very vague / random and not very appealing.
The builder is all about building and getting towers, so this should be reinforced.
Proposed: Removed all + / - damage versus races aside of humanoids - Increased minus damage versus humanoids to 10% - Increased food gain to 20
Food is a random resource and not directly tied to power, so giving out 10 more should not be a problem,
but making the builder more desirable and stand on his own, to become an occasional niche pick that offers
mass and quality of towers at the cost of missed other boni.



- Master of Encyclopedic Wisdom

The problem with the builder is that he is build around getting high level fast but controversally becomes totally obsolete afterwards and offers nothing else, while also decreasing your damage.
I propose a special dynamic for the builder, that makes him more challenging but also more rewarding and useful.
Proposed: 15 > 25% minus base damage - Towers gain 25% mana regen at level 25 and 2% physical damage for every 1000 EXP
(This means a carry with 10000 EXP would have 15% bonus damage)
This is a crazy change, but it shifts the niche of midgame obsolete builder into a lategame builder. If you pick the Master to build a physical lane, you have to fight
through a hard game with the minus damage, but are rewarded with good scaling into the exp extremes. So the exp bonus of the builder is not obsolete
in the mid-lategame, and the builder does not act like a quickstart to 25 and being a burden from then on. The manaregen is a small bonus for the general towers,
as damage is mostly useless for 90% of a maze, so reaching 25 is rewarded and unique. Effectively the builder gives a slight owl of wisdom like progression at the
cost of a hard run. Even at very high EXP numbers, the damage does not come close to real damage builders. A niche ultra lategame bonus for your carry tower.



- Royal Assasin

Not bad, at the edge of being competitive, feels like not impactful enough versus bosses however, which usually results in dissapointment.
Proposed: 5% more Boss damage



- Benevolent Witch

Not bad either, although requires a little buff that plays more to her strengths.
Proposed: 10% more max mana



- Spirit Warden

Acceptable but underwhelming compared to the go-to builders. Needs more power in his respective field which is crowd control.
Proposed: 10% more damage to masses



- Sorceress

Pretty much the strongest Builder Ingame, the equivalent to the Beastmaster, although offers more power and less mali, as the
minus damage hurts far less than the total loss of mana and spell damage of the Beastmaster.
Proposed: 10% > 15% minus base damage
Just a very slight nerf to make early game a little harder as most other builders are buffed in comparison



- Beastmaster

The beastmaster is one of the top builders but the mana penalty is too harsh. While all other builders can recover from their penalties,
the beastmaster cant. I am not 100% fixed on this change, but I think it makes sense out of fairness towards the others.
The sorceress gains equal if not more damage power, while losing very little in comparison.
Proposed: 300% minus mana regen > 150% minus mana regen
Now the beastmaster can use his mana elexirs to make a single or maybe two mana towers somewhat work if he really wants to.



- Panda Monk

He requires a lot of luck to work, and is very oddly non specialized, so not often picked
Proposed: -60% item find > -50% item find / -10% item quality > -20% item quality
Just a slight change, so less item luck is required, while the negative stats stay the same, making him less luck reliant
and more viable in comparison.



- Naga Time Twister

She is rather viable but not on par with the go to builders, the deficits are very harsh for the gain.
Proposed: 30% Attackspeed > 35% Attackspeed
Just a slight buff to make her more viable


The Alchemist, Realist and Monstrosity are on a pretty equal level.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, most are very moderate and slight changes that safely push the builders into the
right direction without taking any risks of breaking balance but offering new ways to build and play.
Currently most of the builders are hardly ever used or not justifiable, and I hope this can change in the future.


Best regards,
- Shrike


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 Post subject: Re: State of Balance of Existing Builders - Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:22 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:51 pm
Posts: 9
Just an idea to fill in yours, and I am sure it is nothing devs did not think of already, and is easy to do right?
Alter bonuses depending on level of the player, does not have to be complicated, a simple rough example:
if the player is above 20, blademaster's crit is 10% instead 8%.


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 Post subject: Re: State of Balance of Existing Builders - Proposal
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:13 am 
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User

Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:38 pm
Posts: 52
Shrike wrote:
Hello Everyone,

I'm Shrike, professional game designer and long time You TD and TD player / mapper.
I want to propose some changes today, as Builders are not in the communitys hands directly.
As we all know are only select few builders really viable and I want to give each builder a
specific niche and occasional viability.

I will propose very simple changes to existing weak builders to make them situationally viable.
It is assumed that easy and medium difficulty builders are all desired to be occasional
options for expert players and not just obsolete when the higher ones become available.

I hope we can progress to a state where most builders are occasionally viable, which would
open a lot more ways to play and experiment with.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All my balance proposals take the current best Builders as reference, and of course keep power that results out of difficulty in mind.
(Aka easier Builders should be slightly weaker in raw power)




- Blademaster

Pretty decent, a viable choice over the Beastmaster if mana is desired, although can not
really compete with strong picks such as Sorceress.
Proposed: 8% Critchance > 10% Critchance
A very slight buff, around 2-4% in total Builder Power.



- Queen of the Seven Skies

There is currently no reason to ever use the bird, as even Storm + Air damage strats are easily outdone by classical damage builders.
As an easy builder, all it does is drive new players towards occasionally picking and likely fail with it.
Proposed A: 10% > 20% Attackspeed - All towers can now attack air targets
Proposed B: 10% > 20% Attackspeed - +50 Attack Range for All towers
While I do not like having 2 builders with range, it just makes so much sense to have it on a builder that
is supposed to attack air targets, which are hard to reach and fly fast.



- Adventurer

The adventurer is not bad, but compared to the "real" item builder, the Alchemist, he feels like he does not warrant a pick.
A very slight buff would make him more desirable
Proposed: 15% > 18% item find (equals to an around 8% buff in total power)



- Farseer

The issue with Farseer is that too much of his value budget lies into true sight, which can be outdone by a single item.
The 700 AOE truesight is valued way too high, while offering very little, so a further small buff is justified.
If the player is paying attention or has an item, the Builder currently offers 10% spelldamage and 75 range, which is in no way competitive.
Proposed A: Increase range to 100 and Spelldamage to 20%
Proposed B: Increase range to 100 and Attackspeed by 20%
While I understand the desire for a spelldamage builder in the easy bracket, I am no fan of tying the only range increase ingame to spell damage.
Increasing the range slightly makes it a valuable niche allround pick, and the attackspeed would fortify that, so I rather would go with attackspeed over spelldamage.



- Iron Maiden

Iron maiden seems to be an occasional pick in a vacuum for 2 player mazes or absolute beginners, It probably should gain a buff
so it can be rarely justified even for more advanced players or team mazes.
Proposed: Gains 0.3% bonus attackspeed for every 1% lives lost below 100% lives.
(So it ranges from +0% to +30% on 1 lives)
This adds a completely new dynamic that fortifies the existing concept of the hero, being a help for new players to not to die
but also adds a rubberbanding dynamic that helps them when they are low. Now experienced players can stretch this to lose lives
and gain the bonus, as the risk of losing, or just go with the lives and have the bonus as a fall back for later waves on a else very weak builder.
Even with this change, she will remain a small niche compared to the go-to builders, but now she can be justified with a special tactic in mind.



- Elementalist

The issue with him is that damage versus orcs and undead is very vague / random and not very appealing.
The builder is all about building and getting towers, so this should be reinforced.
Proposed: Removed all + / - damage versus races aside of humanoids - Increased minus damage versus humanoids to 10% - Increased food gain to 20
Food is a random resource and not directly tied to power, so giving out 10 more should not be a problem,
but making the builder more desirable and stand on his own, to become an occasional niche pick that offers
mass and quality of towers at the cost of missed other boni.



- Master of Encyclopedic Wisdom

The problem with the builder is that he is build around getting high level fast but controversally becomes totally obsolete afterwards and offers nothing else, while also decreasing your damage.
I propose a special dynamic for the builder, that makes him more challenging but also more rewarding and useful.
Proposed: 15 > 25% minus base damage - Towers gain 25% mana regen at level 25 and 2% physical damage for every 1000 EXP
(This means a carry with 10000 EXP would have 15% bonus damage)
This is a crazy change, but it shifts the niche of midgame obsolete builder into a lategame builder. If you pick the Master to build a physical lane, you have to fight
through a hard game with the minus damage, but are rewarded with good scaling into the exp extremes. So the exp bonus of the builder is not obsolete
in the mid-lategame, and the builder does not act like a quickstart to 25 and being a burden from then on. The manaregen is a small bonus for the general towers,
as damage is mostly useless for 90% of a maze, so reaching 25 is rewarded and unique. Effectively the builder gives a slight owl of wisdom like progression at the
cost of a hard run. Even at very high EXP numbers, the damage does not come close to real damage builders. A niche ultra lategame bonus for your carry tower.



- Royal Assasin

Not bad, at the edge of being competitive, feels like not impactful enough versus bosses however, which usually results in dissapointment.
Proposed: 5% more Boss damage



- Benevolent Witch

Not bad either, although requires a little buff that plays more to her strengths.
Proposed: 10% more max mana



- Spirit Warden

Acceptable but underwhelming compared to the go-to builders. Needs more power in his respective field which is crowd control.
Proposed: 10% more damage to masses



- Sorceress

Pretty much the strongest Builder Ingame, the equivalent to the Beastmaster, although offers more power and less mali, as the
minus damage hurts far less than the total loss of mana and spell damage of the Beastmaster.
Proposed: 10% > 15% minus base damage
Just a very slight nerf to make early game a little harder as most other builders are buffed in comparison



- Beastmaster

The beastmaster is one of the top builders but the mana penalty is too harsh. While all other builders can recover from their penalties,
the beastmaster cant. I am not 100% fixed on this change, but I think it makes sense out of fairness towards the others.
The sorceress gains equal if not more damage power, while losing very little in comparison.
Proposed: 300% minus mana regen > 150% minus mana regen
Now the beastmaster can use his mana elexirs to make a single or maybe two mana towers somewhat work if he really wants to.



- Panda Monk

He requires a lot of luck to work, and is very oddly non specialized, so not often picked
Proposed: -60% item find > -50% item find / -10% item quality > -20% item quality
Just a slight change, so less item luck is required, while the negative stats stay the same, making him less luck reliant
and more viable in comparison.



- Naga Time Twister

She is rather viable but not on par with the go to builders, the deficits are very harsh for the gain.
Proposed: 30% Attackspeed > 35% Attackspeed
Just a slight buff to make her more viable


The Alchemist, Realist and Monstrosity are on a pretty equal level.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you can see, most are very moderate and slight changes that safely push the builders into the
right direction without taking any risks of breaking balance but offering new ways to build and play.
Currently most of the builders are hardly ever used or not justifiable, and I hope this can change in the future.


Best regards,
- Shrike


Absolutely agree about beastmaster - decreasing mana reg is too high, but even 150% is too high price. I guess, 100% would be balanced.
Also, I've an idea about elementalist - this builder requires only for playing 5 or more elemets, so it should give much more pro's it have now. My propose: remove all +/- to races and -1 point of food for base towers with -1 or -2 wood for researching element and building towers.
Idea about eagle - making a towers able to attack air - it will be enough to increase playability of builder.
Idea about far seer - remove spldmg bonus, but increase range bonus to 250-300 and increase true sight to 1000 aoe.
At last - idea for new builder.
Name: Elven Racist (just for a little bit of fun :D )
Icon and model: Furion from dota

An advanced builder

Pro's:
+15-25% to all races and sizes

Con's:
-15-25% attack speed, attack (not base!) dmg, spldmg


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 Post subject: Re: State of Balance of Existing Builders - Proposal
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:18 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:51 am
Posts: 3
I disagree on some of your ideas. The ones not mentioned below seem nice.

Adventurer: This builder is already very good and should not be buffed. Might be worth nerfing instead.
Queen of the Seven Skies proposal B and Farseer: Bonus range is difficult to plan around, so perhaps the idea should be moved away from beginner builders altogether.
Royal Assassin: This builder is already very good for when you need items but do not wish to sacrifice buff duration. Might be worth nerfing instead.
Berserker: This is definitely not a top builder. He makes early game easy, but not quite as easy as e.g. Realist does, and then he ruins the late game by not being able to use mana support towers. Dropping the manaregen con to -100% might be more reasonable, or perhaps even removing the manaregen con and setting spell damage to -300%.
Naga Time Twister: This is hands down the best builder in the game for a lot of builds. Might be worth nerfing instead, perhaps by taking away the +attack speed altogether.


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