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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:45 am 
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damage is autobalanced.


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:02 am 
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-.- This was a (bad choosen) example to make the point clearer. Balancing something imba (spells) by adding something imba (immune) cant be the way. Thats all i want to say.


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:09 am 
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Natac wrote:
-.- This was a (bad choosen) example to make the point clearer. Balancing something imba (spells) by adding something imba (immune) cant be the way. Thats all i want to say.


ok then :-D


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:01 am 
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Quote:
So you really dare to say immune is imba instead of saying ice spires is totally overpowered?

My feeling was that i was saying both, and the replay was posted for both reasons...
But actually in other games played without soul vault/ dark barreries/ magic batteries, the icy spire is much less overpowered. Also in this replay, the icy spire was build on top of a level 18 book of knowledfge (or something like this, those towers that gain xp per hit), at the end it is about level 23 and i gave it all the IAS potions so that he has a cd of about 0.6-0.7.

Still it was strange. It is supposed to (have a chance to) take 14% of the targetted unit's hp on hit. If we had the sould vault effect (50% more) the dark accumulator effect (fulll upgrade of dark batteries; level 5: 6% more), and the light storage effect (2nd upgrade of light batteries: 10% more), it make a spell of

14 x (1+0.5+0.06+0.1)= 23.2 % of the current hp of the targetted units.

It is cool (^^), still acceptable (although overpowered on bosses/challenges), but far from the 80-90% that we see in the replay so i was suggesting there is a bug.
But one can answer that the game cannot last forever and it has to come to an end sometimes . Not false. ^^

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I think the point he wants to tell us, is immune disables 15% of the towers and 100% spells, which is to much. And if u get the rounds only by the spells, its really hard to come along with an immune wave.

Thx Natac, you got my point. Some spell towers are extremely strong (like the lightning gen family, key towers in the storm race), so building them means they will xp fast and when an immune wave comes you are lost. I was saying that the immune creeps are underrated and their hp calcuation could be reviewed, or even (dreaming^^) that immune creeps could be simply removed because those creeps with 80% magic reduction are already hard enough.

Also another quite important point:

With the actual wood (force) income, during the first ~60 levels we can only develop 2 races and a bit of a third but not much (for instance astral + iron and a bit of ice). But as the table of Attack types / Armor types is made, whatever combination of 2 races will give you a heavy weakness on one armor type where some of your tower will make only 90% dmg and the other only 60%. When an immune wave comes in that armor type in late levels you loose nearly all the 50 lives of the level. 2 waves like this and game over. SO a possible solution could be to change the constants in the Attack vs Armor table, e.g. change the 180% which is lol, and 60% which is also lol. As far as i remember the least you can do in eeve td is 80% (for instance storm vs ground) and it is already quite hard.


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:12 am 
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I think immune isn't that hard.
Armor weaknesses encourage to build 2 different elements. In the future there will also be fire towers with decay for example.
So you don't need 3 or 4 elements.

And youTD isn't supposed to be easy :-D


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:18 am 
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First of all, there is a difference between easy and unfair. And i could bet, many players who dont know about immune waves much are totally suprised if one of them appears. This would be more "unfair" then only "not easy" to them.

Afar from that there should also be an easy way to play the game, cause not every players is a good Tower Defender. And YouTD has to be easy enough, to get the community grows. Wont be much efficent if only some pro players design towers and play the map. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:20 am 
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Absolute beginner is quite easy :-D


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:38 pm 
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Immunity waves are only a big issue if you heavily abuse Effect synergies. Theses aren´t really autobalancable, some Effects are just fine - until another complementary effect comes in from another Tower. The map can´t exacly measure that. Buried Sould and Lightning Generator are a great example.

Immunity waves force you to have at least SOME resembelance of decent DPS/GOLD correlation. In the very least they offer a reason not to transform Common Towers at the first opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:14 am 
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I can agree with immunity being the hardest, but really as the map currently plays out, it would be piss easy if immunity was removed. All balance is gone should it be removed.
I´d much rather see immune creeps just getting the nerfbat lowering their total HP 6-8%.
Its the simple solution at least, removing it and you´d have to rebalance/remake or even remove lots of the towers currently avalieble :\


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:15 am 
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trip wrote:
I can agree with immunity being the hardest, but really as the map currently plays out, it would be piss easy if immunity was removed. All balance is gone should it be removed.
I´d much rather see immune creeps just getting the nerfbat lowering their total HP 6-8%.
Its the simple solution at least, removing it and you´d have to rebalance/remake or even remove lots of the towers currently avalieble :\


reducing the HP a little could be a good solution.
But i don't think they are very hard.


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:50 am 
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trip wrote:
I can agree with immunity being the hardest, but really as the map currently plays out, it would be piss easy if immunity was removed. All balance is gone should it be removed.
I´d much rather see immune creeps just getting the nerfbat lowering their total HP 6-8%.
Its the simple solution at least, removing it and you´d have to rebalance/remake or even remove lots of the towers currently avalieble :\


Again: Balancing something imba (spells) by adding something other imba (immune) cant be the right way.

If the map becomes to easy without immunity, lets talk about the spelldamage and the spells ifself. Maybe there is hidden the real imbalance!? Or perhaps the creeps are simply to weak?

Apart from that spell reduction can be an alternative to immunity.

Immunity disables 15% of the towers and 100% of the spells. Even a wave, disabeling all fire tower is less hard, cause the spells of the other towers still works. And if this is the core feature to balance YouTD, we definitly done something wrong. Think about it!


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 Post subject: Re: magic immunity and 230 armor, are you serious ?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:13 pm 
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Natac wrote:
trip wrote:
I can agree with immunity being the hardest, but really as the map currently plays out, it would be piss easy if immunity was removed. All balance is gone should it be removed.
I´d much rather see immune creeps just getting the nerfbat lowering their total HP 6-8%.
Its the simple solution at least, removing it and you´d have to rebalance/remake or even remove lots of the towers currently avalieble :\


Again: Balancing something imba (spells) by adding something other imba (immune) cant be the right way.

If the map becomes to easy without immunity, lets talk about the spelldamage and the spells ifself. Maybe there is hidden the real imbalance!? Or perhaps the creeps are simply to weak?

Apart from that spell reduction can be an alternative to immunity.

Immunity disables 15% of the towers and 100% of the spells. Even a wave, disabeling all fire tower is less hard, cause the spells of the other towers still works. And if this is the core feature to balance YouTD, we definitly done something wrong. Think about it!


I do agree, but as I wrote, it would be the simple solution and require lot less work. The thing however I do like about these waves, is that it forces you in many ways to make up combinations of raw dmg, spelldmg and slow/stuns.


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