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 Post subject: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 1:07 am 
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i dont know if theyr supposed to attack buildings or not.
in the first game i played with beta 7, they did however not attack buildings while in the second game they did.

the power generator were as far as i could tell fairly overpriced in wood. even when i had stacked all slots around it full with buildings, the push effect was minimal.
the buildings beeing the ultimate golem, tanks and a flamer.

the ent needs some kind of balancing. it went down really quick against only a couple of gryphons while it completely anihilated all weak ground units. with wop/forgottens it crushes everything on the ground and if you get a healer on it! it just went through everything all by itself.


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:24 am 
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the_rift wrote:
i dont know if theyr supposed to attack buildings or not.
in the first game i played with beta 7, they did however not attack buildings while in the second game they did.


They are supposed to but the damage is small and they dont use attack animation sometimes

the_rift wrote:
the ent needs some kind of balancing. it went down really quick against only a couple of gryphons while it completely anihilated all weak ground units. with wop/forgottens it crushes everything on the ground and if you get a healer on it! it just went through everything all by itself.


So they go down quick to stuff that counters them but they totally pwn stuff that they counter? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:27 am 
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i know that the gyrocopters didnt attack buildings because they just stacked up on the other side and the enemy did not have to repair.

if the ent is supposed to kill everything on the ground with less then 500 hp, it is overpowered.
seeing how all units with magic attack except nether ancient and gryphon fit the low hp criteria, there are very limited counters for it. send it in with anti air and you will instantly push the lane. the air will target the anti air and get pawned while the ent lives on.


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:35 am 
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thats because magic attacks are not the only thing that counters ent, and no it does not own everything instantly with low hp, but it does a decent amount of damage, try fighting it with mags, or other big melee, they will tear the ent down, even easier when backed up with siege that outranges its stun.

healers help against him a lot!

a lot of specials hurt him! try a volcano, city of decay, OoL, serpent rock, world freezer etc.

Units that can counter: avatars of vengeance, mags, infernals, ice queens, long range siege, air, rocket tanks, assault tanks, mine tank mines (if theres enough of them), suicide gobs (if ent used stun already), warlocks (same situation with suicide gobs), incubi, banshees, paladins, mages, other legendaries, and others i havent found yet.

of course nothing can solo the thing (except maybe some of the legendary units), you have to take it on with a mix of units, but i have yet to see an ent survive long when fighting a few heavy melee and getting pounded on with a lot of siege, even with backup.


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 9:45 pm 
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counter it with heavy tankers? really.. not ignoring the fact that both sides have backup we can quickly come to the conclusion that after the ent has killed the enemys backup with his spikes the other guys tanker will get killed by the ents backup. ents beat any tanker you put against it. unless its another ent and the imunity doesnt cover the spikes.. then they would just stand there and spike eachother to death.

put a healer against it? who says you cant put a healer behind the ent? the ent gets a much greater advantage from heal then any army of weak units it comes up against.

its not as if the ent is expensive either. it comes from a uppgrade so its even easier to get. there are plenty of strategies to rush it and if you get it early its game over.

counter it with siege? thats just a laugh really. on the other hand, ive never personaly tried to counter anything with siege so who am i to disagree..


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 10:10 pm 
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enough splash siege counters most things


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 2:31 am 
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the_rift wrote:
counter it with heavy tankers? really.. not ignoring the fact that both sides have backup we can quickly come to the conclusion that after the ent has killed the enemys backup with his spikes the other guys tanker will get killed by the ents backup. ents beat any tanker you put against it. unless its another ent and the imunity doesnt cover the spikes.. then they would just stand there and spike eachother to death.

put a healer against it? who says you cant put a healer behind the ent? the ent gets a much greater advantage from heal then any army of weak units it comes up against.

its not as if the ent is expensive either. it comes from a uppgrade so its even easier to get. there are plenty of strategies to rush it and if you get it early its game over.

counter it with siege? thats just a laugh really. on the other hand, ive never personaly tried to counter anything with siege so who am i to disagree..


you admited to not countering with siege, now can you admit that youve probably havent even tried fighting ent with half the things i put up? you know, youre a very pessimistic person "counter with siege? thats a laugh" wtf dude? how about you actually try everything before saying anything? with that attitude you got, that ent will pwn you every time, i can predict that much.

hey! wanna know something funny? if you think his spike spell is so imba, try pitting things with feedback against it! theres plenty of them! think!!!


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:56 am 
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I know this is useless, but nothing can one on one it, once they make it able to attack air.. -100% attack dmg.. that should be an arua 700range :) and magic immune to everything

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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:32 pm 
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Gothic wrote:
you admited to not countering with siege, now can you admit that youve probably havent even tried fighting ent with half the things i put up? you know, youre a very pessimistic person "counter with siege? thats a laugh" wtf dude? how about you actually try everything before saying anything? with that attitude you got, that ent will pwn you every time, i can predict that much.

hey! wanna know something funny? if you think his spike spell is so imba, try pitting things with feedback against it! theres plenty of them! think!!!


yeah. its my attitude that makes the ent overpowered.
why did i admit to never using siege as a counter? because siege do 70% to all armours. first of all i would have to build several of them to do any reall damage and then i would get rolled over by just about everything else the enemy have, seeing how my army will consist of units doing a whole lot less damage then theirs.
thats why countering with siege is a laugh. i have no idea why you resort to personal attacks. "ha! he admits not testing one thing so ill just accuse him of not testing anything at all" whats up with that?

like i said before, all heavy tankers will lose to it because it negates their damage. unless you get 2 or more in which case theyll be far from cost effective and cant be considered a counters anyways. that removes a couple of units from the list.
casters have low hp and all units that cant take more then 2 spikes is pretty useless. theyll get spiked, stunned and spiked again.
ice queens sure are good but they also die from just a litle more then 2 spikes. they do some instant damage which is good but they also cost 400 each and only spawn slightly faster then the ent.
avatars, now your on to something. they have magic attack and light armor, have some really nice abilitys for ent killing. too bad it costs 570 to build one and one cant counter an ent because it spawns slower and the magic dmg is negated.
the hydra is by many considered to be the strongest unit in the game. it costs 700 to get and what happens when it comes across an ent? it dies. a 750 gold, 2 step uppgrade ultimate versus a 875 gold, 2 step uppgrade ultimate and the cheaper one wins.
that tells you something about it.

the ent is simply too strong and too easy to get to have so few counters.

on a side note, it would be even cooler if you got the ent from a ancient protector. now how cool and unique wouldnt it be to get the ultimate unit from a tower?

and back to you calling me negative.. which is the best tester? a negative one or a positive one? a negative one points out all flaws without distiction and a positive one says go to everything. wont be much balancing going on with the later.


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:22 pm 
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theres a fine line between pointing out flaws and complaining about something you just got owned with, and being positive or negative has nothing to do about pointing out flaws, this is beta testing, everyones suppose to point out flaws.

countering with siege sucks? youve obviously havent tried a mass turtle rush, those are nasty.

and also like i said before, try feedback (you know what that is, right?) it keeps ent from casting its stun more than once.


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 5:50 pm 
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Often 2-3 siege spawns is enough for them to end up massing


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:20 pm 
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Gothic wrote:
theres a fine line between pointing out flaws and complaining about something you just got owned with, and being positive or negative has nothing to do about pointing out flaws, this is beta testing, everyones suppose to point out flaws.

countering with siege sucks? youve obviously havent tried a mass turtle rush, those are nasty.

and also like i said before, try feedback (you know what that is, right?) it keeps ent from casting its stun more than once.


and i guess your the master at knowing which case is true..
i for one test for the sake of testing. not to win on a beta with bugs and flaws. and for that matter, i was the one owning with it.

how many units have feedback? is it 2 or 3? playing -ir which many people seems to like, theres a even smaller chanse that you get one.
all together too few counters for a unit that by itself can plow through a lane.

Talamare wrote:
Often 2-3 siege spawns is enough for them to end up massing


then you still have to get 3 siege spawns. if those are the cheapest siege, its mortar teams costing 210 each so 630gold. now the enemy probably put their 630 gold into something else. theres a lot more nasty things you can do for that much gold.


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 6:50 pm 
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the_rift wrote:
Talamare wrote:
Often 2-3 siege spawns is enough for them to end up massing


then you still have to get 3 siege spawns. if those are the cheapest siege, its mortar teams costing 210 each so 630gold. now the enemy probably put their 630 gold into something else. theres a lot more nasty things you can do for that much gold.


The siege will probably pwn w/e they made unless its air maybe

In a pub game try this, pick human (or random it) if they dont make air at the beginning, make a defender then 4 mortar spawns, If they make air, ask your partner on the lane to focus on anti air then make a horn and make sure that the mortars will be affected by it, (cast it yourself if needed)

You will be amazed by the results, sure there are many things that would counter this basic strat, but it should work pretty well sometimes


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:30 pm 
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One of the things we have to accept is that not everything has a definite counter. Especially late game, all the units get mixed up and you can't aim to counter individual units. The annihilator is very strong in its own way, but it has the weakness of being melee and not being able to hit air. Overall I think it's decently balanced and not blatantly overpowered.

Also, I think people are using the word "counter" way to loosely. There are only a few hard counters in this game such as assassins vs casters, dragonhawks vs air, defenders vs amazon, spamming vs death pits to name some of them. All of these true counters directly impact the effectiveness of what they counter.

You can't really say siege counters the annihilator. Siege is pretty good overall as it builds up in the back lines. Siege might not get hit by the annihilator stun, but that just makes siege ever so slightly more effective against the big tree. Siege is good overall, but it's not a "counter" versus the annihilator.


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 Post subject: Re: gyrocopters and power generator and ultimate ent
PostPosted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 2:37 am 
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i guess we use the term counter as in what is most effective against it, rather than what makes it useless (like assassins makes casters useless). like chaos damage vs divine armor, it doesnt make divine armor useless, its just the most effective way to combat it. i guess you could also call them technical counters.

so far the_rift is just playign the "what if" game and is argueing rather than trying out ALL units and seeing what works better than others.


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