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 Post subject: Bunch of suggestions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:48 am 
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Here's some suggestions, mainly from clan TDG (theCHUNK, The 1st Seal...), not me ^^

Random tiles should be the same for all players- some people can get the in a worse combination than others- it can make the game uneven.

They claim that nature's slowing does not work (?!)

Many levels use the same creeps. They said it seems like you ran out of imagination

Dropping boss, in their opinion, to 1-10 % and leaking it shouldn't lower your health by 40. Chunk thinks this number is stupid.

There were some more, but I don't remember them. To sum up- American mappers didn't like your map. Chunck said he won't play it anymore because "the concept and execution was so bad"- too many ideas and they are badly organised.

Some of their suggestions, imo, make sense. There is too much randomity. Tiles the same for all players would be good- then the chances are the same.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:15 pm 
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i dunno Chunk, but this guy seems to be not very objective, if he just thinks 40 lives are "stupid", some more explanations why it is stupid would be good.

however i agree to most of these suggestions.

Btw, i also dunno clan TDG, but they re judging really hard, if you meet em again, please tell em that this is (as written in the loading screen) a BETA VERSION. It doesn't have to be perfect, it may be far away from beeing perfect, i just released it that ppl can give feedback what can be reworked.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:15 am 
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They are considered as the best mapping clan on US East or even whole US. And they judge hard, but they are also great testers.

Their chieftain gala-something(don't remember) is the best one- if something is rigged in a map, he will see it, ALWAYS.

One more thing- they also think that the food limit is too low(forgot about it). Here, I don't agree- even longer mazes in late game would lenghten the game a lot.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:30 pm 
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I like the map, really !

Random tiles are very great, because everyone have to manage the situation, thats a good Quest !
and the same images are no problem but please add much more up to wave 77 because i need it :D

40 lives are enaught... if 40 lives are not enaught, he have to learn playing !
Natures slowing doesn't work... i think so too but without slow, nature is a good element too

So the only things i remind u to do :
- More creep waves
- new elements ?! (for example Darkness or sth. others, will be great) :D

@ Andriejj, please say , what <<<<U>>>> are Thinking and not :"Here's some suggestions, mainly from clan TDG (theCHUNK, The 1st Seal...), not me ^^ "

its okay, that u say the suggestions from others but if one suggeston is yours ?!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:12 pm 
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My suggestions were posted in another topic.

I thought it's worth to post impressions of TDG clan ^^

http://www.jx3.net/TDG/wiki/index.php/Main_Page


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 9:40 pm 
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Hello, a few more suggestions we had:

Would it be possible to line the player upgrade areas up with the players? It would feel much more natural.

Also, it seems that many of the units are spread out to such an extent that fire splash won't hit more than one, meaning that picking fire as a starting tech has very few advantages.

Good luck on your maps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:49 pm 
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Quote:
Chunck said he won't play it anymore because "the concept and execution was so bad"- too many ideas and they are badly organised.


I think it would make more sense if you bothered to give my comments in the context, rather than making the statements sound as if I was attempting to be rude. Here's that context:

Background context:
Every day for 2 weeks straight, Andriejj showed up in our channel and ranted about how great Eeeve TD was. I'm not exaggerating - he often went on ad naseum for 30 minutes or more. After the second week of non-stop bragging about how great the map was and how I "had to play it", I hosted it for some of my clan members to check it out - mainly to humor Andriejj and to be able to see if it was worth the praise being heaped upon it.

For context about the people being discussed:
I was playing the map with Shvegait (maker of Burbenog TD) and the Chieftain of our clan (despite Andriejj's mis-information), The1stSeal (a shaman of our clan noted for his keen sense of game design), Galahaut (a shaman of our clan and perhaps one of the most gifted playtesters I've ever seen), and a few other people from our clan who decided to join us. You may not be familiar with my own map-making - I don't find that particularly surprising - but I've developed 10 maps for Warcraft (three of which were innovative TDs) and am a shaman of Clan TDG, which has developed over 100 maps for Warcraft III over the past 4 years including a litany of maps that have been or currently are very popular. I've also been involved in testing more than 60 of those 100 maps our clan has made, so it isn't like my opinion (or any of the other people discussed above) should be dismissed out of hand (although you are free to disagree with our statements - that's your option as a map-maker).

Context for our comments:
I'm very familiar with the fact that the map was in beta, and I have several advanced secondary education degrees, so I think I am capable both of being objective and reading a loading screen. While I was playing the map, there were a number of design elements that I felt were flawed and I noted several of them - more out of a sense of habit than really attempting to judge the map. I also made note of multiple comments made by those people who were with me, who also naturally think about game design while playing any game. The comments above that were attributed primarily to me were not solely my opinions, they were more of a group consensus of those individuals who played the map. Again, we weren't seeking to dismantle the game or the concept or to attack the maker.

Context for why the comments were made:
A day or two after we played the map, Andriejj (again) came into our channel and continued his raving about your map. By this point, the entire clan had lost patience with the repeated comments regarding the map and the constant demands to play it. Despite telling Andriejj that we had been bothered enough, he continued to demand we play the map, after which point, I told him that we already had played it and that we didn't think it merited his continual harping on us to play the map. He proceeded to ask our opinion of the map and when I explained what elements I felt were flawed, he proceeded to push me to make a half-thought-out laundry list of things that I remembered from our discussion in-game about elements we felt were flawed - after which point, he insulted a TD of mine and then proceeded to start demanding that we play your other maps.

Now, in context, I think you can probably see why I felt compelled to rectify the way that my comments and my clan were being misrepresented by Andriejj. It isn't (nor was it ever) my/our intention to insult you or your map. In fact, I probably wouldn't have even made a list of suggestions at all if it weren't for the fact that I was badgered into it.

Given all of that, I think I should also clarify that I don't see anything objective about having a boss leak cost 40 lives - in fact, it seems entirely subjective, by definition. Conceptually, it makes very little sense to have back-to-back rounds with exactly the same boss (I'm not certain what the round was, but the model was a knight of some sort) - because if you leaked it on the previous round, it's unlikely that you will be able to defeat it in the subsequent round - particularly when the round-to-round bonuses are fairly small and unlikely to yield a new tower or substantial maze length additions. If you don't feel this is true, that's your right as a map-maker, but I hesitate to see a conceptual defense for that type of design and I doubt you could convince me that there is a rational, practical argument to be made in its defense.

If you'd like a more detailed explanation of my comments or a more comprehensive analysis of your map's design flaws and how they might be addressed, I'd invite you to drop by our forum or clan channel and chat with us. If not, good luck on your mapping projects and please consider the comments attributed to myself and our clan as a unwelcome misrepresentation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:26 am 
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Now that's a normal answer. And I didn't make you look bad here. The only negative thing was how you supported the statement that losing 40 lives for a boss is stupid. NOW you said something more specific, when we talked, you didn't say that.

And we didn't discuss it all the time when I were on your channel, there were other topics too, Eeeve! TD was only one of them- we talked about Vile, AoM, DoE, Icewind.... So You ARE exoggerating.

And why I bothered saying this? Because you were discussing about some TD and I just said which TD is the best imo.

Some other day, when my CD-key on Northrend was occupied by some !@$#@%#@$! thief and there was nobody to play with on clan VZ and o0o, I just dropped by your channel and asked you if you played it.

Then we discussed and now you're saying that I forced you to play it again. And that's a LIE. I asked you what you didn't like, because I know you are a respected mapping clan and I thought your remarks can be worth something. So I just listened and even asked if anything else is wrong in your opinion. And as you see, Gekko didn't react badly, so I didn't put it in a way you said.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:41 pm 
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Ok guys, thanks for your long answers :).

@CHUNK

Concerning your testing: I thank you for it, i have no problem with any criticism. I apologize for calling you unobjective. The only information i had about your testing was the post from Andriejj. From this post i couldn't know if you are a good tester or just somebody who says "bah bad map next one" without thinking.
I will join ya channel/board, but not now, i m writing endterm exams in the next 3 weeks. After this i will come to ask you for more testing =).

Concerning the map:
The 40 lives: The number 40 is not chosen without thought. Since the levels are random i wanted each level to take the same number of lives if you don't kill it. Since normal creeps steal 4 lives and they re 10, they also steal 40 lives from you if you don't kill em.

but you re right (this already is on my toDo list): if you drop a boss down to very little life, the loss of 40 lives is too much.

@1stSeal: i will put your suggestions on my toDo list =).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:22 am 
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Andriejj wrote:
So You ARE exoggerating... Then we discussed and now you're saying that I forced you to play it again. And that's a LIE.

The problem with calling me a liar and an exaggerator is that our channel has 4 bots in it constantly and they all record everything that is said in the channel. If you'd like me to back my assertions with hard data, I can request copies of the transcripts from each of the bots and post them to verify exactly what was said, and I think you will find that events transpired precisely as I stated. I really don't think this is necessary step, but I would recommend that you desist in calling me names or suggesting that I somehow changed the context to suit my purposes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:32 am 
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gekko wrote:
Concerning the map:
The 40 lives: The number 40 is not chosen without thought. Since the levels are random i wanted each level to take the same number of lives if you don't kill it. Since normal creeps steal 4 lives and they re 10, they also steal 40 lives from you if you don't kill em.


I'm confused. If bosses steal 40 lives, and normal creeps steal 4 lives, and you have a total of 40 lives, then why not just use 10 lives, with bosses stealing 10 and normal creeps stealing 1? Seems like pointless inflation of lives with no real effect, unless I'm missing something here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 3:11 am 
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Galahaut wrote:
... Seems like pointless inflation of lives with no real effect, unless I'm missing something here.


mass waves (40creeps/wave 1life each) :wink:

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A defender is slow, because he moves with his shield right in front of his face and doesnt want to fall ;).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:14 pm 
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Ah, right.


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 Post subject: Game Suggestions
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:26 pm 
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First off, i really do like the map, out of all the TD's the only one i really enjoy is burbenog in general but this map seems to take a lot of the good things from other TDs and combine them into a single game. I agree starting all players off with the same pattern of random rocks/power-up squares just to keep the game balanced. However there are a few things I noticed that I think could be fixed to help the game a bit.

Firstly, the game is too intensely easy. First try, and second time ever playing, I defeated sick mode without losing a life and beating every challenge. I would shift all the difficulties down one, hard to normal, normal to easy, sick to hard, and then revamp sick mode for something much harder.

The dual element towers and the traps, from my experience so far, are fairly useless. I made myself one dual element tower late in the game, which helped a lot (the fireberry bush from fire + nature), but I was wishing they had more to do with the game, rather than just as a singular ultimate tower that you will only build one of, if any. As far as the traps are concerned, the DPS of just about any of my other towers greatly outmatches the trap DPS, especially since the mobs move so fast (plus poison not slowing), plus they are way more expensive than any other tower. Why would i pay 1500 for a fire trap when i could build a cactus and upgrade it to do much more damage. Granted, you have to be lucky to get level 5 in an element, and I was last time I played, but regardless, 1500 gold could be much better spent on towers. I finished the game spending one wood on my dual element tower and had the rest left over.

The waves are fairly uninteresting. You have normal, group, flight and boss (challenge is basically a big boss). They also seem fairly randomly scattered where it will be 2-3 groups in a row, then maybe a flight, with no real rhyme or reason. The models are generally all the same, getting the same model and type of creep multiple waves in a row. Like a previous poster said, if you are having trouble with that wave, you are going to have trouble with the next as well. I would set up a pattern for the spawns and possibly think of more ideas to make waves different from each other.

One thing your maze building setup lets you do is juggle creeps. With 100 gold I could have a boss or challenge run through my maze 50 times by selling and replacing stone blocks. I'm not sure if this was intentional but it makes the game even easier than it already is (which from my experience playing nature was that the creeps, besides the challenges, couldnt get through even half my maze on sick). I personally like the concept of juggling because it allows players another element to explore and be good at besides planning their mazes.

Besides making the game much harder, I think adding other things for the players to do besides build towers woudl be interesting. For instance, one TD I played lets you send the next wave before it is scheduled to come out, adding more points but risking leaks at the same time. You could also have the next wave start counting down as soon as the previous begins coming, adding a sense of urgency to the game and having players need to build on the fly rather than having all the time to plan.

So far, this TD seems like a much better version of gem TD, just not polished yet because its in beta. I very much like the maze building concept, as well as the progression of the towers you can build, and the upgrades you can get, being based on the skill points going into the elements. That element reminds me a bit of burbenog, getting 1 lumber every 5 levels to either enhance your current element or gain a new one. I also love the fact that it can be team or solo. But, as it stands currently, theres not much to think about in terms of tower building besides build whatever is the highest dps tower you can make, since the only variation from wave to wave is flight, boss, normal or group. I love the concept of the random blocks, the boost squares, and giving items to towers. I think that with some work, and with the addition of new facets and concerns that have to be figured out by players, the TD could become something fun an interesting.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:13 pm 
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thx for you long answer =). I try to change/implement these things.


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