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Untrained Anti Mage by Natac

The icon is already used by 1 tower:

Nortrom the Silencer 

Name General Description
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Untrained Anti Mage v13
1500i
150
General
Element:astral
Rarity:uncommon
Goldcost:150
Wave lvl:9
Ele. lvl:1
Family:Ancient Anti Mage

Submission
By: Natac
Date:2010-02-14 18:03:50
Status: DECLINED
ID:892
Last Update:2010-03-06 01:02:47
Combat
DPS:43
Type:Physical
Targets:0
Range:800
Cooldown:1.4
Damage:58 - 63
Abil factor:0.5

Magic
Mana: 100
Regeneration:0/s
Description
A blood-elf warrior who is conflicted about using magic. Paradoxically, mana is both an advantage and a disadvantage to him.

Abilities
Magic Glaive
Every hit restores 1% of this towers maximum mana. Restores at least 1 mana.
If the maximum mana is reached, the next hit will release the whole mana in a single blast dealing +7.9 damage per mana point and increasing the maximum mana by 4%.

Level Bonus:
+ 0.26 damage per mana point.
Force Blast
Decreases the maximum mana to help ' Magic Glaive ' to trigger a blast on the next hit. If this tower has more than 50 mana, the maximum mana gets decreased to the current mana value. Otherwise the maximum mana gets decreased to 50.

Active ability:
Cooldown: 30 sec
Range: 0
Abstinence
Every mana point missing in the Anti Mage ' s manapool increases the damage on the main target by +2.4.
Specials
Bounce attack:
4 targets
-15% damage per bounce

Status:
DECLINED: This tower was rejected by MasterCassim, reason:
if someone wants to update this.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Since this tower gains max mana from it's abilities, I calculated it at those. If you would rather use 50/100 though the ability factor is 0.811.

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 Post subject: Update to version v9!
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:53 pm 
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The tower has been updated to version v9!

Creator's reason for this update:

Increased dmg/mana on the blast


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:21 pm 
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The ability factor is still way too low.

And the level bonus is absurdly small compared to the base. Why not increase it to 4% of the base?

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:58 pm 
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The blast get increased automatically by 3%, cause max mana gets increased. And the low level bonus, is because it gets +4%/25 attacks.

At the current state, the tower will deal full dmg on lvl 0, increasing its dmg all 26 attacks (not every level) by +3%. So i think its more overpowered than underpowered (especially because the blast has also a level bonus).


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:51 pm 
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Natac wrote:
The blast get increased automatically by 3%, cause max mana gets increased. And the low level bonus, is because it gets +4%/25 attacks.

At the current state, the tower will deal full dmg on lvl 0, increasing its dmg all 26 attacks (not every level) by +3%. So i think its more overpowered than underpowered (especially because the blast has also a level bonus).



From spell damage post: "If your tower can hit more targets, calculate around 3/5 of the maximum targets for your calculations." so it's +3% mana every 41.66 attacks, which takes 58.3 seconds to complete. In half an hour of constant attacking, this would get it's max mana up to 250, and using a current mana of half this gives Abstinence a DPS of 80.36, goldcost of 54.66 and Magic Glaive a DPS of 16.98 and goldcost of 11.55, for an ability factor of 0.559. So half an hour later, it still isn't as powerful as it should be...

Also with the current level bonus, 250 max mana and level 25, it adds a whole 37.5 on this tower, compared to the base of 975. Might as well not have one IMO.

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 Post subject: Update to version v10!
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:03 pm 
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The tower has been updated to version v10!

Creator's reason for this update:

Adjusted ability values to fit the 0.5 abil factor (thx @ Majildian)


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:48 pm 
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If the maximum mana is reached, the next hit will release the whole mana in a single blast dealing +9.4 damage per mana point and increasing the maximum mana by 4%.

First thing here (and all other family members) The +9.4 i think in tooltips rounding is allowed. so write 9 or then 10 and still calculate with the theory craft number^^. Next: The + i dont think thats needed and the tooltip can be made clearer by using a Formula?
... in a single blast dealing [9 x Mana] damage and increasing the maximum mana by 4%.

Still adore the concept!


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:01 pm 
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I think that the max mana being increased should factor into the calculations, but not as much as it did before. How about calculate it at 1.5x increase from the base (Takes 10 minutes almost exactly.)?

I think Magic Glaive is fine as it is though, so should be able to get it to 0.5 ability factor at 10 minutes by only decreasing Abstinence.

Anti Mage: 1.8/mana point gives 0.592 ability factor and adding in Magic Glaive = 0.501 so looks like a good value. This gives an abil factor of 0.637 when built. (Before = 0.439 when built, 0.251 @ 10 minutes.)
Adept Anti Mage: 2.3/mana point gives 0.583 + Magic Glaive = 0.492 @ 10 min and 0.631 when built. (Before = 0.474 when built, 0.256 @ 10 min.)
Experienced Anti Mage: 2.7/mana point gives 0.598 + Magic Glaive = 0.507 @ 10 min and 0.641 when built. (Before = 0.482 when built, 0.269 @ 10 min.)
Elder Anti Mage: 3.1/mana point gives 0.594 + Magic Glaive = 0.503 @ 10 min and 0.639 when built. (Before = 0.482 when built, 0.268 @ 10 min.)
Ancient Anti Mage: 4.1/mana point gives 0.587 + Magic Glaive = 0.496 @ 10 min and 0.634 when built. (Before = 0.479 when built, 0.264 @ 10 min.)

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:18 pm 
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@Neotopia:
About the number: I think one decimal place is okay. Cause the bonus damage is displayed. So it will be confusing if the tooltips reads +9 and the damage number is 940. (Same with 10).
Formular: The "+" is used to make clear the damage is added to the normal attack damage (and not dealt by extra spell damage or something like that). And I'll think about the formular. But i think its also clear the way it is.

@Majildian
The +max mana bonus isnt increased in the calculations, cause it replaces the +4% default damage bonus on level up (cause only half of the damage benefits from it, cause its the normal attack).
With the current values, the tower does exactly the damage of 1.0 ability factor on lvl 10. What ability factor are u talking about? The one of the tower? Or is it the ability factor decrease form 1.0? And what do u mean with "before" and "when built"? Sorry... but i dont get ur point. :? Can u explain it a bit more to me (plz make ur notation clearer where ur values come from).


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:16 pm 
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Natac wrote:
The +max mana bonus isnt increased in the calculations, cause it replaces the +4% default damage bonus on level up (cause only half of the damage benefits from it, cause its the normal attack).
With the current values, the tower does exactly the damage of 1.0 ability factor on lvl 10. What ability factor are u talking about? The one of the tower? Or is it the ability factor decrease form 1.0? And what do u mean with "before" and "when built"? Sorry... but i dont get ur point. :? Can u explain it a bit more to me (plz make ur notation clearer where ur values come from).


When I say "when built" I mean half the base mana is used as the value for Abstinence (IE: 1.8*50 = 90) and before is with the current values (IE: 2.9*50 = 145). When I talk about an ability factor, I mean that the abilities would be dealing the amount of damage needed to reduce a towers ability factor to that. (IE: 90 damage from Abstinence gives an ability factor of 0.708 and Magic Glaive is 0.903 on all towers so Abs+Magic Glaive= 1.611 - 1 = 0.611.. Apparently I was using the wrong formula to calculate the values in the last post. :|)

At level 0 the DPS seems to be 195.97 on this tower and 168.46 on a basic tower? (Base DPS = (60.5 * 2.139) (avg bounces) / 1.4 & Abstinence DPS = 145 / 1.4)

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:09 pm 
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Okay, we talking about the "+4% max mana" beeing to strong, right? Whats about +3% and having a level bonus of +0.1%/lvl? So lvl 10 will have the +4%. I think its hard to calculate how many attacks the tower needs to lvl up. But i think it will gain exp pretty fast, cause it does much dmg half the time (as long as mana is <50%), so it should get many last kills -> much xp -> fast level up.

The overall DPS of this tower is ((192.79 dmg per attack x 1/0.5 abilty factor)/1.4 cooldown=) 275 dps (How do u calculated 195.97 ?). A normal 150 gold uncommon tower has 168.46 dps. This is strange. But this isnt my fault, cause the script calculates the damage, this DPS value is based on.


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:26 pm 
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I don't understand your DPS calculation at all.

Mine is 60.5 (The average of the displayed damage on this page.) * 2.139 (Since this tower bounces 4 times, we get 2.4, but since it loses 15% per bounce, the second bounce is 0.85x damage and the third is 0.7225x damage and 0.7225 * 0.4 = 0.289 so the end result is 1+0.85+0.289 (Not entirely sure on this since I don't know the exact way WC3 handles bounces.)) / 1.4 (The cooldown of this tower.) = 92.4 (This is the normal attack DPS.) +
145 (This is the damage from abstinence when the tower has 50 mana.) / 1.4 (Again, cooldown.) = 103.5(Abstinence DPS)

Total = 196 (Rounding up.).

And the problem isn't that the +mana% is too high, but that the dmg/mana is too high.

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:51 pm 
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My dps calculation was false anyway. But ur dps value is also incorrect. So lets calc it again:
1st hit: 60.5 dmg
2nd hit: 51.43 dmg |Can only be done 3/5 of the time (mass/normal/air)
3rd hit: 43.71 dmg |Can only be done 3/5 of the time (mass/normal/air)
4th hit: 37.16 dmg |Can only be done 3/5 of the time (mass/normal/air)
Total: 191.79 dmg |Can only be done 3/5 of the time (mass/normal/air)

So we have (60.5 * 2/5) + (191.79 * 3/5) = 139.27 avg dmg
139.27 avg dmg / 1.4 cooldown = 99.48 (This is the normal attack DPS.)

So the spells should also deal 99.48 dps. Will be changed ;)

Before i didnt thought about the bonuce doesnt working on 40% of the waves. So the values are getting adjusted. New values will be:
Blast: 6.8 (+0.23/lvl)
Abstinence: 2.1

Quote:
And the problem isn't that the +mana% is too high, but that the dmg/mana is too high.
This is the same, only the other way round ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:03 pm 
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Shouldn't the spell DPS be 84 because they only hit one target?

The normal attack DPS is higher in total because it can hit 4 targets, but only does part of the damage to each. Each of the spells always hit one target, so it would make sense that they deal half the amount of DPS as a single target basic tower.

Or is my logic failing? :D

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 Post subject: Re: Anti Mage (892)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:11 pm 
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I think ur logic is wrong: :wink:

The tower deals ~100 overall avg dps (incl. bounce) per attack and having an ability factor of 0.5. So the spells should deal the other half, resulting in also ~100 dps from the spells. If this is done by damaging one target or all ever hit or completly different doesnt matter. (Could also be done by a single ability which deals 10,000 dmg :shock: every 100 attacks).

This is also the reason why the blast has such a high dmg (940 dmg on 100 mana), cause its dealing the missing dmg from the last 26 attacks. :wink:


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